Why aren't Germans patriotic?

Germans ARE patriotic.

In America you show patriotism by attaching a full size US flag on your pickup truck (Or confederate flag for alternative patriotism), singing the anthem before every baseball game, and sending 18 year olds to Iraq so you can later thank them for their service when they roll by you in their wheelchair in Walmart.

In Germany we show patriotism by voting for higher taxes on ourselves to make healthcare and college tuition universally accessible to our less fortunate fellow citizens, and by picking up after one another to keep public spaces clean and nice for everyone.

I guess it gets lost in translation.

I’m an american who has been living in Germany for over 12 years. Germans are patriotic. They just aren’t obnoxious about it like americans are. When we arrived here, germans weren’t big on waving their flag around. I asked some people about that, and they think that came about after WWII. That waving your flag around is a little too much like the nationalism that almost completely ruined this beautiful country.

When the World Cup was held here in 2006, that relationship with the flag changed. Everyone was so happy to be hosting the World Cup in their own country, people started putting the german flag on their balconies, cars, faces, hats, etc. Nobody is walking around with the flag claiming to be the greatest or anything (except maybe in terms of football), but the flag does come out when the national team is playing a game.

I would have to agree with some of the other answers to this question. Germans show their unity in different ways, such as living with the higher taxes, which, in the end, leads to a more stable society. I pay more tax here, than I paid in the states, but I see what good those taxes do and am happy to be here. I’m currently going through the process of becoming a german citizen, so that I can take part in the elections, as we have continued to do in the US for the last 12 years. This last election was a disappointment for both my wife and I and solidified our decision to stay here. Germany is the better country, in many ways.

Aside from there being patriotic Germans (and the odd fringe nationalist nutcase as in all populations), the phenomenon noted by the question is a hangover from the second world war Nazi debacle, though critically it wouldn’t have lasted even this long without massive cultural re-exposure of the type “we must never forget” in mass media, education and entertainment.

You can get some hilarious “troll results” in conversations if you in passing mention drops a casual line of: “Oh, he’s German like [insert present person] and Hitler.” Bonus points if they bring up his Austrian origins. From personal experience, many young Germans are fed up hearing the same stories of their country’s past gross misdeeds repeated ad nauseum, and we might see a swing back of the pendulum with generational shift. Perhaps.

One could speculate how German patriotism would have looked like today without the mass media, educational and entertainment pressure to always rotate Hitler in front of German eyes, to always keep their country’s past atrocities fresh in memory. It could possibly have been a patriotism bereft of fanaticism and tempered by Germany’s self-destructive nationalist experiences during the first half of the 20th century (brief war glory aside, Hitler in particular was a net disaster to German people all over Europe, and that’s not even touching on what his regime did to other peoples).

In short, without the constant media pressure through the decades, German patriotism today might have looked quite much like the modern Japanese variant: Business-like, non-aggressive and rid of self-doubt and guilt.

In comparison, it could be noted that Napoleon completely dominated the European consciousness all the way up to and including the 1830s. Then it petered out, and though still looming large he eventually became more of a historical figure among others. The same would likely have happened with Hitler without the media stir-up anew. This aspect of constant re-exposure cannot be ignored when discussing German patriotism. One could almost cheekily call it a secular faith of the established society, even an original sin.

Yet again in comparison, the Japanese today are not constantly re-exposed on a massive scale to their country’s past war crimes in their mass media, educational system and entertainment. It’s just part of the historical background, not the existential focal point of their established society.

Shouting, screaming and flag waving aint patriotism. Doing stuff to improve your country is.

Americans shout, scream and wave flags to show that they are pariotic. They elect a Shitgibbon who gives military secrets to the main enemy of the state, to show their patriotism. They kill others and each other to show their patriotism. They boast and say they are the greatest country in the world to show they are partiotic. They hate and abuse others who are in utterly desperate need, to show their patriotism. They avoid taxes and are happy for people to die for lack of care to show their patriotism.

I do not think that is real patriotism.

Germans don’t do that.

Germans look after each other, they elect sensible people who will not betray their countries secrets. They do not hate, they pay their (very high) taxes which then goes to looking after the most vulnerable in their society. The help those who are in desperate need, even non-Germans.

I think they are extremely patriotic.

As they say actions speak louder than words.

Americans should actually try to do something to make them great instead of talking shit, and trying to criticise other nations, especially Germany.

Germany is a pretty well developed country. I’m using “developed” in its broad, vague sense, but it works here because Germany rates pretty high on every development index there is.

You’ll find that patriotism usually correlates low development. You usually find patriotism in traditional, rural societies with low education levels, or decent but ideologically biased education levels.

Like always in human science, it doesn’t always work. But if you take the top ten countries on the scale of human development, you’ll find most of them are countries that harbor very little patriotism. And countries further down the scale are often populated by people who think their country/culture is the best.

List of not very patriotic countries, Germany is in it.

Countries with a patriotic populations rank much lower on development: Russia is 38, Turkey is 55, Mexico is 68, Brazil 78.

If you go too far down the scale, people tend to be not so patriotic anymore, since it often happens that there isn’t anything to be proud of. I mean that literally. While a Somalian might feel good about their cultural heritage, there isn’t really a banner under which they can rally. Exceptions apply, as usual in human science. For example, big countries with a long history of being awesome such as India, Pakistan or Egypt, where you can find a majority of sincere patriots in spite of the bottom-of-the-scale human development.

Germans are, of course, made even less patriot by the fact that Germany and a lot of Europe was obliterated as a consequence of German nationalism. If you ask me, this is a lesson the whole world could harvest the fruits of, but apparently only the Germans have.

If you look at the answers from Germans to this question, it’s quite apparent that they don’t even get what patriotism is. It’s like asking an atheist why they don’t believe in God. I realize that “Because, duh!” isn’t a very satisfying answer.

But you’d get the same reply if you asked why the Dutch or the Swedes aren’t more patriotic. Patriotism just seems to lose its relevance in first-world countries.

I would very forcefully dispute the idea that Germany isn’t patriotic, and is an anarchist’s wet dream of a world devoid of any identities.

Since the 1990s, it has been quite evident that the German state has been coalescing power, and influence to become a hegemon in her own right. I say this without any alarmist reaction, comparing the attempts of the Bundesrepublik to increase its influence with the rise of the Nazis or the Kaiser’s fooling around. There is ultimately nothing wrong with Germany wanting to increase her heft.

It was quite clear to all the NATO countries for instance, that the crimes that the Western countries were accusing Serbians under President Milosevic, were nothing but facile. The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia itself cleared President Milosevic’s name from the massacres that took place in Srebrenica, ruling “the Chamber is not satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented in this case to find that Slobodan Milošević agreed with the common plan,” with the common plan here being the removal of Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croats from Bosnian Serbs’ claimed territories. (Read para 3460 of http://www.icty.org/x/cases/kara... )

This is quite important, for it were the alleged apathy of the Serbian state headed by President Milosevic that led to NATO taking on the mantle to “protect” the people. Among the leading participants were the Germans.

If our imagined utopian status that we award to Germany is right, then why is it that Germany partook in a practice that too often springs forward from hegemonies? Why did the Bundeswehr partake in a heinous, misbegotten bombing of Serbia, which were based on lies?

Patriotism is part of the same forces from which emanate the concepts of a society’s power, hegemony, pride in seeing one’s lands and people prosper and become powerful relative to others. In 1990s, the Germans were already engaging with elements of these forces, and it isn’t really difficult tracing the evolution of a distinct German push behind the actions of Europe.

Fast forward to now, the actions of the German state, and an erudition of some of its key thinkers sheds light on how it has become mainstream among the government of the need to push certain measures that directly contradict the idealist conceptualization of Germany being a liberal utopia.

Lt. Col Michael Hanisch of the Bundeswehr writes in a working paper for the Federal Academy for Security Policy, about “ideas on how to strengthen resilience in Germany.”

Lt Col Hanisch contends that, “despite the best possible protective measures, open societies will remain vulnerable in the face of a still complex and dynamic security environment”, and thus “an essential component of a comprehensive, whole-of-government approach to security is to strengthen the “firmness against crises”, that is to, cope with, absorb and adapt to inevitable incidents such as environmental disasters, terrorist attacks or propaganda.” https://www.baks.bund.de/sites/b...

Essentially, combating your propaganda with my propaganda. Isn’t this patriotism? What are national anthems, uniforms, inculcation of pride in one’s own tribe, linguistic pride, conceptualization of “my people”, if not fomenting the birth of the nation/empire/civilization/society? You have a senior armed officer writing a paper for a government linked think tank discussing how to best “prepare” the German people for being resilient in the face of difficulties that maybe to come (discussion of which I shall leave for some other time a few years later). And quite bluntly one of the measures to best “prepare” a people is to foment a sense of collective that supersedes the individual.

If Germany isn’t patriotic/doesn’t contain any elements of patriotic/nationalistic feelings, then how on earth is a section of the German upper echelon off late engaging in actions that one would term as connected quite visibly to the same forces from which comes patriotism?

I’m assuming you are comparing Germany with the USA.

First off, I have never visited a country which shows its patriotism more prominently than the US. There are flags everywhere, people constantly claim how the US is the best country in the world, etc. Compared with that, any other nation will seem rather unpatriotic to you.

Second, Germans are quite patriotic in some ways. Patriotism means valuing and supporting your country. Here are some aspects that make Germans patriotic in this sense:

• Germans are often rooted in their home regions/towns. You will find lots of “local patriotism” - people will vigorously praise their town’s/region’s merits to anybody who will hear it, and will proudly declare they would never (or only temporarily) live anywhere else.
• Germans also have no inhibition “defending” their country when abroad. They will proudly explain the merits of their nation to anybody who will listen, especially when comparing local beer with the real stuff from home.
• Germans are able to put the nation’s interests above their own, for instance when evaluating which parties and therefore policies to vote for. This is a highly patriotic act which is unfortunately quite uncommon in many countries.
• Germans are proud of the typical traits associated with Germany, for instance high-quality engineering, efficiency, timeliness, etc. Most are also proud of relatively new traits, like tolerance, liberty and equality. They just don’t feel the need to cover everything in flags to remind them of these traits.

So I don’t think Germans are especially unpatriotic. However, if you measure patriotism as claiming your nation is superior to any other (which is usually called nationalism), or as starting wars against other nations, well, that is indeed something most Germans rather avoid for obvious reasons.

We are patriotic, by

• paying taxes
• building public infrastructure like schools, libraries and public transport
• valuing our Grundgesetz, like dignity, equality and constitutionality
• giving our politicians a hard time when they do things that are not for the public good
• making fun of them, when they are only slightly annoying - because that is what you are able to do in a healthy democracy. Making fun of politicians or criticizing them does not make you suspicious, you are just doing what a free member of the society is supposed to be able to do
• volunteering for community services like fire fighting brigades or the THW
• keeping the nature healthy and clean so our children or the children of other citizens will still have breathable air and drinkable water
• campaigning for information freedom laws
• being community minded instead of thinking that autonomy should be the goal (no man is an island)
• knowing that Germany is much better off in a strong EU instead of being on its own in a shifting world where you have to deal with major and growing powers like China
• knowing our freedom ends where freedom, dignity, health and safety of our fellow citizens are concerned

Waving a flag doesn’t make you a patriot. Not criticising your leaders doesn’t make you a patriot. Giving blind followership to anybody who is demanding it does not make you a patriot. Ignoring the fact that you can’t exist totally on your own in a interconnected society and that everybody needs to contribute to a public good doesn’t make you a patriot. Blind nationalism doesn’t make you a patriot. Blind isolationism doesn’t make you a patriot.

The key to a healthy nation was and is always working together for a common goal. And that means: fuckin’ contribute to the community. All parts of it. THEN you are a patriot.

We are patriotic. Thank you very much.

Patriots often disagree with each other over the definition of patriotism. To some, fighting wars for your country is patriotic. Others might be of the opinion that it is one’s patriotic duty to keep the country away of wars.

Germans have found themselves in the somewhat unfortunate position of being on the losing side in more than one war. To this day, cinematic villains in most war dramas are Germans. Most recently, in Wonder Woman, even though the setting was of the first world war and not the second, one of the main antagonists was a German.

Modern Germans perhaps realise that the reason their country started wars in the past was because they fell in love with the wrong kind of hero. Because of this, Germans have a natural suspicion of heroes and hero-like leader figures. They fear anyone who might lead them into war again.

(Image: Jewish Virtual Library[1])

To illustrate my point, here is a passage from the preface to Lawrence Lessig’s book on the changing face of copyright — Remix[2].

In early 2007, I was at dinner with some friends in Berlin. We were talking about global warming. After an increasingly intense exchange about the threats from climate change, one overeager American at the table blurted, “We need to wage a war on carbon. Governments need to mobilize. Get our troops on the march!” Then he fell back into his chair, proud of his bold resolve, sipping a bit too much of the wildly too-expensive red wine. It was obvious that my friend was speaking metaphorically. Carbon is not an “enemy.” Not even an American marine could fight it.

Yet, as I looked around the table, a kind of reticence seemed to float above our German companions. “What does that look mean?” I asked one of my friends. After a short pause, he almost whispered, “Germans don’t like war.”

The response sparked a rare moment of recognition (in me). Of course, no one was talking about using guns to fight carbon. Or even carbon polluters. Yet, for obvious reasons, the associations with war in Germany are strongly negative. The whole country, but especially Berlin, is draped in constant reminders of the costs of that country’s twentieth-century double blunder.

A similar observation can be found in the preface to Christopher Vogler’s book on the craft of storytelling — The Writer’s Journey[3]. Vogler points out that Germany is one of the few countries in the world which can be aptly described as “herophobic”.

German culture seems ambivalent about the term “hero”. The hero has a long tradition of veneration in Germany, but two World Wars and the legacy of Hitler and the Nazis have tainted the concept. Nazism and German militarism manipulated and distorted the powerful symbols of the hero myth, invoking its passions to enslave, dehumanize, and destroy. Like any archetypal system, like any philosophy or creed, the heroic form can be warped and used with great effect for ill intention.

In the post-Hitler period the idea of hero has been given a rest as the culture re-evaluates itself. Dispassionate, cold-blooded anti-heroes are more in keeping with the current German spirit. A tone of unsentimental realism is more popular at present, although there will always be a strain of romanticism and love of fantasy. Germans can enjoy imaginative hero tales from other cultures but don’t seem comfortable with home-grown romantic heroes for the time being.

So to summarise, the seeming lack of patriotism in Germany is a manifestation of their own critical mindset. It might seem bewildering to someone with a nationalist bend of mind from America or even India, but it is a sign of emotional maturity among Germans. They know they have made mistakes and they don’t want a repeat.

Footnotes

[1] Adolf Hitler

[2] Remix (book) - Wikipedia

[3] The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers - Wikipedia

I'm not german, but as I'm learning german I talked with some germans in order to practice, I never forgot one of the first german friends I had, in one of your conversations he said 'in school they basically teach us to be ashamed of being germans'. All countries did something to be ashamed of. England, France, US, but you don't tell they can't be proud of being english, french, american. In the first war, turkey killed more than a million of armenians, a belgian's king did an holocaust in Africa, and when jews were trying to leave Germany, US and Russia didn't let a lot them in. I couldn't write all of them in a quora's answer. Eugenics existed decades before 1933-45. Nobody ever talked in my school about the allies atrocities against german people. Human History was made through exploitation and wars. Saying germans they can't be proud of being german due to their past is basically saying almost every people cannot be proud of their country due to its history. You can search about japanese atrocities against chinese people. A lot of nice things we had today were created by germans. I'm not a nationalist, nor trying to diminish what happened, it was inhumane and we must talk about it, but what I see is just a hypocrisy against germany, like they were the only nation in the world who did atrocities. If one cause of WW1 was nationalism, certainly it didn't came only from German Empire, british and french were quite nationalist as well.

Germans are, quite rightly, a deeply patriotic and proud people, but they are less proud as a Nation State. The German State dates only from 1871, but the German people go back to antiquity. Not only were they indispensable federati of the Roman Empire, but when they brought the Empire down, unlike most barbarians, they never allowed their military superiority to fool them into thinking they had nothing to learn from the Empire they had just destroyed. Many were already Christian, and it is from the German people that Europe learned that respect for learning must be coupled with a degree of disrespect, in order for knowledge to progress.

The astonishing fact is that although there were great Italian contributions to science before the Papal destruction of Galileo, the vast majority of new discoveries since the 17C have been driven not by the Romance speaking descendents of Classical civilization, but by peoples who had never been ruled by Rome, and principal among these are the various German speaking peoples. If you look on a “timeline of science” you will be struck how the intellectual contribution of Germans to scientific progress is wildly disproportionate. The same is true of Philosophy and Music. An absolutely astonishing people, politically frustrated at almost every turn, from developing into a great Nation.

The opinions about that differ. This is mine:

It basically goes back to what Germans did under Hitler from 1933 - 45.

When it all came onto the table, it was a shock for many, others didn't want to be reminded of what they did and/or had known.

Then came the 60s and 70s. A new generation, that was very enthusiastic about making things better. This generation more or less evolved a hate against everything that had to do with nationalism in the widest sense and patriotism was seen as the little brother of nationalism. Generally good, but as Germans are, they do everything categoric and take it to the maximum. So while in the 1930 - 40s nationalism had been taken to horrible spheres, they now took the dislike of everything that had to do with Germany to new levels.

This generation is still active in many important places in politics and journalism. Our education system was - among others - build on the idea to avoid nationalism. Since it is hard to find the perfect degree of patriotism and since many teachers were 68ers as we call them (people who were students in the year 1968, where the big student-revolts and demonstrations had taken place), several generations were raised very anti-national.

Not beeing nationalistic ist fine. But I think, it can also gets unhealthy, when it becomes too dogmatic and one doesn’t want to accept any other opinions when it comes to Germany and the political ideas.

The feuilleton in Germany is almost completely left. The lack of a normal right feuilleton pushed all political ideas and discussions that were not according to the liberal/left mainstream out of the public discussion. The effect is, that a right scene establishes that cooks it’s soup without a normal exchange of arguments and ideas with the left or other. This way the right, as well as the left/liberal are kind of evolving in echo-chambers, lacking the exchange with certain ideas. This outsider-position that the right had, made it easier for problematic “streams” to evolve.

Im not promoting to include nationalistic or fascistic ideas into the mainstream discussions - that this doesn’t happen is fine with me. We don't need the old nationalism or fascism ever again. I'm talking about normal views on how to live and shape everyday-politics, that are on the right/conservative side, but are perfectly according to the constitution and human rights. They are simply not “classical left”.

So, Germans are not patriotic because beeing patriotic rembers us of fascistic times. If it is good to be so unpatriotic or not - people have very different opinions here.

Well, what do you mean with patriotism?

Love of my country? What exactly constitutes “my country”? The landscape, the people, the culture? Sure, there's lots of things in there I like. Some more, some less. Do I love them just for having the same Passport?

Pride? How can I take pride in my country? My grandparents were part of a generation that started WW2. I'm not them. THEIR grandparents were part of a generation that included the likes of Marx, Koch, Behring, …

So we are standing on the shoulders of giants. But that doesn't make us giants. Why should we take pride in what our great-grandparents, grandparents and parents accomplished?

The one thing we learned is that getting carried away by “national pride” can lead to dark consequences. So we guard against it. Most of us don't envy you your patriotism. It's just that ours is a bit more complicated.

But I am surely not going to start telling others how awesome my home is.

Because seen from space, even a moutain looks small.

The attitude some US citizens show towards their country is locked in eternal orbit, removed from the ground. You might call it over the top. Not many countries in the world display their flag on bikinis and consider that patriotic. Sometimes I wonder why so much visible display is necessary, what does it compensate for? The country certainly does not appear ==united== right now…

So, Germans in general tend to be very proud of their country. Just in a less marketing/sales way, more like engineering. U know: measured, precise, to the point when needed. A good example is the stomping our local “Donald Trumps” got in the recent elections. We don’t vote in large numbers for the loudest mouths, we tend to vote for the good of the country.

There is a distinct difference between patriotism and pride.

Patriotism is an exhibitionist thing.

You, as a patriot, are convinced of your country being superior to others. And you feel the need to show that. Aggressively.
I believe a vast majority of us Germans is very reflective regarding this concept. That majority feels rather ashamed of any loud patriotism, in Germany and elsewhere.

But the same majority (reflected in electional decisions throughout the last 70 years) is proud of several aspects of our country and culture. Examples are:

• our language, which is capable to be very precise and structured
• our tribes, that appear to have more social glue than the entire country has.
• our philosophical and scientific tradition
• the high reputation German products and engineering has throughout the world
• our approach to save nature, avoid military solutions (which we believe do not exist in most cases) and tolerance against other countries and religions

We just do not want to shout out loud about our pride.

Because history.

Quite simply, most Germans know what out of control nationalism got them in during WW2, and the resulting genocide, destruction and human suffering that was caused.

Besides, Germany has a very high standard of living, high levels of innovation and is a leader in Engineering. They are proud of all this that Germany has achieved after its demise in WW2.

For most Germans, patriotism is about appreciating peace, and being proud of Germany’s human rights and high HDI rankings.

What patriotism certainly DOESN’T mean for Germans is intimidating small nations and invading other countries in the name of “freedom and human rights”.

In my experience, Germans are the most patriotic people on Earth. There might be a confusion because Germans are practically patriotic, rather than vocally patriotic.

In countries like the United States, and in the UK to an extent, there is lots of jingoism and flag-waving, but in daily life people are actually less likely to do things to improve their country. Germans, on the other hand, are more likely to sacrifice their time and energy for the common-good, i.e. for Germany.

So a BMW line-worker works hard and goes the extra mile, in part for Germany. He will sort his trash for Germany, he will drive safely for Germany, he will pay his taxes for Germany, he will keep his driveway clean for Germany. During the World Cup he might well fly the German flag, but, when you think about it, that is a really minor display of patriotism when you compare it to actually doing stuff.

I’m proud of the wit and creativity in Great Britain, where I was born, and I love living in Spain, but I think the Germans have a lot to teach us about how to behave, patriotically, as individuals in society.

Why aren't Germans patriotic?

Although Swedish, I thought I would chime in.

Patriotism is actually a rather new idea. It started off slowly after the Thirty Years’ War, when the idea of a king representing his people and negotiating on their behalf gained hold. Earlier, it had been the king owning a piece of territory and the people on it were his subjects. So the end of the Thirty Years’ War marked a distinct shift in attitude, and thus nationalism and patriotism was born.

It took a while for patriotism and nationalism to grow, though. It wasn’t as if the idea of a national identity just took over. A great part was the American and French revolutions that both infused the idea of “citizenship”. It took a little longer for other nations. Even during the Napoleonic war, the idea of being the “King’s subjects” was still a great part of the British national identity.

In the short time that patriotism and nationalism have existed, we have had first hand experience, world-wide, of what unfettered nationalism can do.

Twice.

We didn’t like it.

The obvious answer may be “Because of what they did in WW2.” – but that’s not the case.

This is a question only US-Americans would ask.

And it’s a wrong question to ask. The much better question would be “Why are the USA so patriotic when the rest of the world is so much more humble?”

Really.

The rest of the world except the USA knows that their country might be beautiful and great and free and totally successful and everything, but they also accept the fact that there are countries on the planet that do some things better than their own country.

Germany is an awesome place to live, that’s for sure. But Austria has better mountains, Thailand better beaches, the USA better National Parks, Italy better sports cars, Japan better electronics and so on and so forth. The only thing Germany might actually be the best is football and beer (I’d strongly argue against the beer thing though).

Saying that Germany is the best place on earth would be just bullshit and everyone knows that. Just as Russians know their country isn’t the absolute best and Australians know their country isn’t the absolute best.

Believing that one’s country is the absolute best is a purely US-American thing. And it’s utter bullshit.

Germans are proud of their country, but they have learned the hard way that unquestioning love and devotion for a country can lead to death by the millions.

To this day, governments continue to fan the flames of “love or devotion to one’s country” (Merriam-Webster definition of patriotism) in order to inspire citizens with a sense of "cultural destiny" that is strong enough to help them ignore daily misery or even want to wage war for the good of “the culture”.

When patriotism in “good” countries gets heated up by “great” leaders with righteous and repeated allegations (a.k.a. propaganda) of gross injustice, cheating, unfairness and aggressive behaviour on the part of “bad” countries, it can quickly turn into something nastier.

Close experience of death and destruction helps older Europeans (Germans in particular) understand this phenomenon better. Some of this gets passed on to the younger generation, but not enough.

“Then I’ll get on my knees and pray. We don’t get fooled again” (Pete Townsend)